Interviews
On Friday, January 30, barnesandnoble.com welcomed Ann Rule, author of BITTER HARVEST.
Moderator: Welcome to barnesandnoble.com, Ms. Rule. I know you are calling in from Kansas City -- are you on a book tour, or does this have to do with the Debora Green case?
Ann Rule: I'm on a book tour. It's kind of full circle. I arrived in Kansas City exactly two years ago yesterday to attend the pretrial hearing of Debora Green. And now I'm back on a book tour and meeting hundreds of readers in Kansas City who have virtually lived this case.
Lois from Charlotte, NC: How did you find out about the case that's profiled in BITTER HARVEST? In fact, how do you find out about most of your cases?
Ann Rule: I hear about a number of cases that become books from readers' mail. They send me clippings and letters of suggestion. I read about the Green case in an AP news story -- very short -- in The Seattle Times. This was followed by more than a dozen letters from readers in the Kansas City area with more information. The case sounded fascinating, if tragic.
Kristen from Gainsville, FL: I haven't read BITTER HARVEST yet, but Debora Green has done something unfathomable to a mother like me. Was there a history of mental illness? Do you find that many of these pyschopaths exhibit unusual or destructive behavior beforehand, or do they just "snap"?
Ann Rule: No history of mental illness in Debora's case. However, inside her family home she had temper tantrums, turned her children against her husband, and seemed determined to destroy her marriage. Most of these people present a fairly sound mask to the world. They don't snap, they just get worse. I have never written a book about someone who was truly crazy. I am more interested in people with personality disorders, such as antisocial personalities and those with narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline personality disorders.
Brian Arleth from Springfield, MA: Where do you come up with the facts in all your cases? Whom do you speak to? How do you begin?
Ann Rule: I usually begin by attending the trial and pretrial hearings. I don't talk to anyone until the case has been adjudicated. Then I talk to the police, the prosecutors, family members, witnesses, and usually the convicted killer in person. I always try to go to the spot where the crime occurred, so I can take readers through the scene and show them the weather, what was growing there, what the air felt like, and details that places them beside me as I investigate.
Maryanne from Maui, HI: Do you believe it was love or hatred that drove Debora to try to poison Mike and to set her house on fire?
Ann Rule: I don't believe she understood the meaning of love. I think it was hatred for him, but most of all, hatred for herself. This was a woman consumed by jealousy and a need to wreak revenge on almost everybody in her world.
Asterisk** from Seattle, WA: BITTER HARVEST ends with you speaking to Debora Green. What surprised you the most when you actually met with her?What was she like in person?
Ann Rule: She was very different from the Debora in the courtroom, who was stolid and said nothing. She was very different from the Debora on the police videotapes taken of the police interview with her three hours after the fatal fire where she laughed and joked. She seemed nervous, diminished, but anxious to convince me that someone else poisoned her husband and set fire to her home. However, she betrayed herself when she changed her story about the night of the fire. She told me that she had struggled down the hall to try to rescue her children. I think she was lying to me, but I think she saw something in my eyes that showed I didn't believe her. Nevertheless, I felt almost sorry for a woman who could have destroyed the children and her own life, to be left with nothing but 40 hard years.
Johnson from Buffalo, NY: Just curiousHas your work ever led to solving a certain case?
Ann Rule: Only my first book, where I reported my friend Ted Bundy to the police as a look-alike for the "Ted" killer they were looking for. I was hoping I was wrong, and indeed he wasn't arrested for another year, and that was for new crimes in Utah.
Jonas from Palo Alto, CA: Your type of work must attract some strange characters. Do you ever take precautions? Has your life ever been threatened?
Ann Rule: No, my life has never been threatened. Sometimes convicted killers sue me because they are angry at the way they are portrayed. For instance, Brad Cunningham of DEAD BY SUNSET is suing me for racketeering under the RICOH Act, because he says my book is full of lies about him. I'm not too worried. I do take precautions. I don't give out my address. I have three huge sons and two huge dogs.
Tara from Decatur, GA: Debora Green used castor beans to poison her husband? How did that work? Could you explain?
Ann Rule: Well, I don't want to give out a recipe for killing your husband, but the common castor bean contains the third-deadliest poison in the world when it is ground up. Debora obviously did some research to find something that would destroy her husband. It was a miracle that he survived at least three poisonings. The plant makes a lovely midwestern spot of color in a summer garden, but the beans are deadly.
Charity from Santa Monica, CA: Do you have any insight into the Jon-Benet Ramsey case? What is going on in Boulder? What is your theory about this bizarre case?
Ann Rule: I'll be in Boulder in three days, and I may find out more then. My opinion is that she died at the hands of one of her own parents -- probably her father. And her mother helped to cover up the crime. I cannot understand why parents anxious to find their child's killer would refuse to talk to the investigators if they were totally innocent.
John Wright from Harrisburg, PA: Ann, Do you write exclusively about female killers? If so, why?
Ann Rule: No. I've only written 3 books about female killers and I've written 15 books in all. I do think that the destructive female is a very interesting subject. Probably 80 percent of my readers are females, and they, like me, want to know why a female would set out to deliberately kill someone who trusted her.
Justine from Missouri: How often did you meet with Mike Farrar? Why do you think he was so open with you?
Ann Rule: I met with him probably half a dozen times for several hours each time. I think he needed to tell the whole story, so he could find some closure. This way, when people ask him, as they will ask him, he can give them the book and he won't have to keep retelling the story of the tragedy of his family.
Maxine from South Bend, IN: Hi, Ms. Rule. I love your work, and I look forward to reading BITTER HARVEST. Your books generally deal with fascinating crimes that don't get a lot of media attention. Will you ever deal with a high-profile case? Thanks.
Ann Rule: Thanks! Probably I will always look for cases without media saturation. I want to write books that have some suspense for the reader and not books about O.J. or Jon-Benet, where every detail has already been published many times. Only if I could get a fresh angle on a high-profile case would I tackle it.
Booker from Portland: What happened to Debora Green's first husband, Duane?I saw their prom picture. Did he have any relevance in this case?
Ann Rule: He had no relevance beyond the fact that he helped to put her through medical school and she soon grew tired of him and left him. I think that that divorce shows how easily she can throw away someone who loved her.
Terry from Westport, CT: Could you talk a little bit about the effect this tragedy had on the town of Kansas City? Was everybody riveted to this case when everything came out?
Ann Rule: Well, I can't say everybody was, however at a book signing last night in Kansas City, 300 people showed up, and fully half of them seem to know someone connected with the case. Kansas City is a big town, but it's also a small town, particularly in its medical community. I think they were shocked that this happened in one of their most exclusive suburbs and that two doctors were involved in such a combative marriage. The saga of Debora Green probably will take its place beside Capote's IN COLD BLOOD as an unforgettable Kansas murder case.
Jennifer from Concord, TN: How do you keep abreast of the latest technological advances of forensic science?
Ann Rule: I lecture often to law enforcement groups, medical examiner conferences, and forensic science groups. After I teach, I sit down and learn from others presenting speeches and seminars at the meeting. I also learn a great deal about DNA, fiber profiles, and fingerprint identification by attending trials. I also went back to college and got an associate degree in police science when I first started writing about true crime. I still have trouble grasping the fine points of DNA, but I'm getting better.
Frank from British Columbia, Canada: Anne Not so much a question, but kudos from a fan. I have read most of your books (except compilations) and always look forward to your new stuff. Keep up the good stuff.
Ann Rule: Thank you. Try the compilations, because each one has a book-length case as well as four or five shorter cases.
Jane from Colorado Springs: How is Debora Green's ex-husband and her only surviving child doing now? Has he completely recovered from all the medical problems he had due to the poisoning?
Ann Rule: I'll know better in half an hour because I'm having dinner with Mike Farrar, his new wife, and the district attorney, Paul Morrison, and his wife. I do know that after 14 hospitalizations in one year, Mike has returned to his cardiology practice, and he says he thinks he has the critical incidents behind him.
Maggie from Nashville, TN: In general, how many, if any, of your ideas come from your fans?
Ann Rule: I would say at least 50 percent. DEAD BY SUNSET was suggested by a dozen different fans. I had never heard of Brad Cunningham. My other new book, IN THE NAME OF LOVE, was suggested by a retired FBI agent who claims to be a fan. YOU BELONG TO ME was suggested by the ex-wife of the killer, and BITTER HARVEST was suggested by a number of readers in Kansas City. I read every letter I get, and those with suggestions go into a cardboard box that says "Possible Books" on the side. Twice a year I go through all the suggestions and pick out one that seems to have the makings of a dynamite book. So I'm very grateful to my readers for keeping an eye out all over America.
Karl Metcalfe from Weehawken, NJ: I just began BITTER HARVEST and am riveted. Does it ever come out that Debora Green suffers from Munchausen syndrome? Thank you for taking my question.
Ann Rule: Excellent diagnosis. I too felt that Debora's strange injuries that would not heal might have resulted from self-injury and reinfection -- shades of Pat Taylor of EVERYTHING SHE EVER WANTED. I find that many of the females I write about have personality disorders that mirror those of other women I've written about.
La from Medina, TX: Why did you decide to leave the police force? Has your experience as a policewoman helped you out in investigating your cases?
Ann Rule: I didn't decide. They decided. I'm very nearsighted, and when I was a policewoman they did not allow officers to wear contact lenses. I couldn't pass the medical part of the civil service exam, even though my vision is 20/20 corrected with glasses. I was very, very disappointed, but it worked out 15 years down the road, when I started to write for True Detective magazine. Now I go into homicide division offices all the time and I instruct police officers, so in a way, I'm back on the force.
Aaron from Dayton, NY: Hello, Ann Rule. What attracts you to the true-crime genre? Obviously your background in police work must have something to do with it.
Ann Rule: It started way before that, when I was seven years old. I started spending my summers in jail. My grandpa was a sheriff in a little town in Michigan. It was a mom-and-pop jail with living quarters, office, and the cells all under one roof. I wondered then what happened to the men behind bars that made them grow up to be criminals. I also wondered how my grandfather could solve crimes with a bullet, a few drops of blood, a cigarette butt, or a piece of torn cloth. I always wondered why, and I still do. I think it's probably inevitable that I chose to write the case histories of crimes and the people who committed them. I'm still trying to answer questions.
Bridget from Boulder, CO: How are Mike Farrar and Lissa doing now?
Ann Rule: They are doing very well, although it probably would be too optimistic to think that they won't have painful scars for the rest of their lives. All they can do is go on.
Hugo from Amityville, NY: Hello, Ms. Rule. I read that you often lecture to enforcement officials on serial murder. What do you lecture on? Are you ever consulted when the police are stumped by the types of cases you write about? Thank you.
Ann Rule: I lecture on serial murderers, beginning with my slide presentation on Ted Bundy. I have the dubious distiction of having known a serial killer personally as a friend before, during, and after his crimes. I also lecture on women who kill and on high-profile offenders. I've written 1,400 articles and books about murderers. And over the last 25 years, I've learned quite a bit from reading case files and attending trials. Sometimes smaller departments will ask my opinion on baffling cases that sound like cases I've written about. In Seattle, I get a lot of calls from people who have information or think they have information about the still-unsolved Green River murder cases that began in 1982. At their request, I pass information on to the Green River Task Force.
Denver from Rockville, MD: Are you ever bothered by the subjects of your books? I hope you won't be offended, but in the whole scheme of literature, what purpose does "true crimes" actually serve? Is it pure escapism?
Ann Rule: I'm not offended. When I began with True Detective, I was very troubled to realize that I made my living off of other people's tragedies. I actually went to a psychiatrist, and he told me that half the world makes a living off the other half's troubles. He said what mattered was how I felt about the people I wrote about. I was relieved, because I did feel a personal connection and grief for my subjects. I think there are many positive sides to true-crime writing. To begin with, I think its important to explore the causes of violence so that we can stem the tide. I have had any number of letters and calls from women particularly, who told me that one of my books saved their lives. I try to preach in a subtle away about being aware of danger, being ready to fight, keeping car doors locked, and the dangers of trusting men just because they are good looking. I really do believe that I am doing what I was meant to do and plan to continue for another 25 years.
Caren from Toronto, Canada: What do you like to read in your spare time?
Ann Rule: Maybe it's a surprise, but I like to read gentle, sensitive novels, particularly books by Anne Tyler. I like Garrison Keillor, have just finished LAKE WOBEGON BOY. I also read biographies, autobiographies, and love books on the advances in medicine. I'm an eclectic reader who admits she reads the National Enquirer, the Star, and People every Monday just to clear my mind. I used to read a lot of true crime, but when you write it all day, you don't want to read true crime at night. My heroes in the genre are first of all Thomas Thompson and his book BLOOD AND MONEY and Truman Capote for IN COLD BLOOD. I also admire Shana Alexander for MRS. HARRIS, Jerry Bledsoe for BITTER BLOOD, and Darcy O'Brien for TWO OF A KIND. I can remember being four years old and thinking that being able to read would be the most magical thing in the world, and it is. One day, I hope to write some gentle novels myself. I started out writing humor, and I'd like to do some of that too. In the meantime I'll try to read the best of other author's works.
Moderator: We are so glad that you have joined us tonight, Ms. Rule... We hope that you will join us again and are eager to see your next book on the shelves!
Ann Rule: Thank you. I really enjoyed being on tonight.
